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I don't hear much about marriages being arranged for people who are in positions of strength. Who gets paired off for convenience and profit? Who? Is it the ones who are in a position to resist, or to run away? Say it out loud, somebody! Arranged marriages are gang rapes. By family and community!

So true....

Dear Mr. Fettslaab, I disagree. Arranged marriages are not gang rapes. I am shocked to hear this from you. I do not want to go off on a tangent about the cultural reasons for arranged marriages, but I will say this- my marriage will be an arranged "love" marriage. Yes, I recieve the security of an arranged marriage and the love aspect. I shall simply tell the boy I love to my my parents and they shall arrange it... although thats a while away..anyways, food for thought...

Dear Miss Priyam, The practise you are rightly sticking up for is evidently not the practise I decry. For marriage to be a fortress of strength, the partners must choose each other after learning each other's character, and the permission of all four parents must be secured. With the exercise of the will comes the power to assume responsibility; from the continuity of the families comes both stability and renewal. That is the teaching and practise in my creed; that is very nearly what you are wisely choosing for your own future. How could I speak against that? It is just sane and wholesome. All the opposite of this other heinous thing, motivated as it is by enhancement of the status of caste, the preservation of ancient despotic male prerogatives, the hoarding of resources of all sorts. I had a friend who was taken away, a bright and infinitely curious girl. Not even eighteen; didn't have a chance. My senses fail me.

I realise Mr. Fettslaab...that is not the type of marriage you decry. If you remember, a recent post I expressed my views regarding tradition. Tradition is not to blame...but how people manipulate it. Indeed I am following my tradition when time comes, but also choosing a partner based on character and personality as you said along with parent consent. My parents have easily given me this right for they say true Hinduism/culture does not speak against this nor does it promote it. It is simply tradition sprung from "safety" for their daughters. But as times/circumstances change so should rules put in place. That is not to say however, tradition should be altered to reflect Western tradition. Marriage is indeed between families as well and I am personally against marrying young. As far as marrying in "caste" goes. What caste? I agree there should be no distinctions but there should be one thing: similarity in mentality, customs, beliefs to ensure a sucessful marriage. These things however, are commonly found in the same "caste" if you call it that. But I am young on these things and quite embarassed to talk openly this way, but I feel like it should have been said. I agree with you however, I think we have reached a consesus from other posts as well.

Dear Ms. Priyam, It is significant that even you should feel some intrusive reflex of modesty upon broaching this topic, which as you say, has to be hashed out in the open, soon, soon. Soon -in time for your generation. The embarrassment will have to be overcome. This is the New Age of personal responsibility for finding and assessing truth. It is no paradox that this personal responsibility can only be taken up through close and sincere consultation with others. The potential of these times, what you have now in your hands, is unknown to history. There has never, ever been anything close to it. ANd never again will it be enough to do things in this way or that because it was always so, no matter if that sufficed for our ancestors... ...One other thing you have mentioned calls for a careful answer, and re-examination. Perhaps marriage within the same culture ensures common reference-points and facilitates communication. In America, it is popularly held that couples must have common interests. This nonsense does not take into account that fact that normal people are growing all of the time, and if a couple is founded on common interests, it is only natural that they will 'grow apart'. This can make it seem that the Indian way is closer to natural common sense. However, this is to gloss over one raw fact. Any marriage (between a man and a woman) is still about as 'cross-cultural' as it could ever get, and that's no cheap play on words. I really don't think that (for example) an Innu trying to build a life with a French-Canadian actually has that much more to overcome than Indian first cousins who have changed eachother's siblings' nappies and practically know each other's lives by heart... Imagine what MonisShona's hapless friend is going to have to overcome with whichever husband her brother allows her, or requires her to marry. A couple must have common spiritual aspirations. For that, they need not share cultures or even religions.

Dear fettslaab, As you said "Imagine what MonisShona's hapless friend is going to have to overcome with whichever husband her brother allows her, or requires her to marry. " I think you have gone through or atleast personally witnessed a similar situation..as i speak, my (now-ex) girlfriend's brother is sending random rishtas for her..the sort of guys who want to stop her from working after marriage...and she just secured a plum premium job in the world's largest petroleum company...she calls up frequently and cries that she does not want to spend the rest of her life with such an MCP..i feel so helpless too..i am ready to do anything for her...but she says she cannot go against her brother (her brother has declared that she will be not allowed to come home ever again or contact anyone at home if she goes against his wishes)..i feel so bad for her..poor girl will have to give up her fabulous career for some guy who's caste only matters..and us, we were supposed to spend our life together..every dream is shattered.. and she is trying to come to terms with the "arranged" setup....a gangrape orchestrated by society and family :-| Ms. Priyam, I respect your views too...its just that...injustice and sacrifice of personal choices & control over free thinking should not be condoned.. thanks for the support guys..

Dear Mr. Shona, I feel the impotent rage and grief. ...It is remarkable in this story that the brother has assumed the parental role. Perhaps the parents are back in India? If, however, they are no more, I would say that the minimal decent requirement for a marriage before society -the approval and loving support of all living parents- has become a non-issue. What does the young lady really owe her brother? So he's got her by this black-mail? Let me tell you about my young friend, whose parents cornered him with a 'propsosal'. He was one of those miracle-bursars, a wunderkind studying in Canada. First they got him to meet up with family in England to meet a girl -he balked at taking off right before mid-terms, so they got to work on him about how his Mother would stop eating and she would be crying and dying day and night and beating her bosom for shame and -you get the idea. He bunked his bloody mid-terms to go to England to meet the girl. As soon as he showed up, they dragged him off some place and pushed him into a room alone with the girl -some high-schooler with a lisp. First thing she said was, 'So... what kinda music d'ya like?' He snapped out of it, and went storming out -the male has a bit more latitude to do this, right? And back to Canada and his exams he went. The entire family, including his beloved young cousins all across Canada, were forbidden to speak to him, or utter his name. ....I remember how rattled he was in those days. Like a broom-stick, he was. Took off all of those rings and other goodies and starteded eating meat and making noises about how he was an atheist now. He just about went to pieces for a while -rejected by all his people. But you see, Mr. Shona, here's why I've draggged all of this out. As my friend did, so does your special friend hold some of the best cards. As a top professional, my friend weathered those awful years. He had the means to do so! So does your special friend. And over time, look what happened: He braved their blackmail and ostracism, survived all that, and now he has the upper hand. To put it with just the right level of crudity: money talks as loudly to caste-bound folk as to anyone else. His parents, the whole crowd treat him with the greatest deference, and he has married a European girl of his choosing. (His Faith is very much intact as well.) ...Your special friend is entitled to graciously decline her brother's generous stewardship, and has the material means to call his bluff about cutting her off. ,,,stay worshipful & alert. -J.F.

Hmm...both of us live in India actually...her father passed away when she was very young and her brother is 10 years older to her. She says her brother has raised her like a parent so she owes her life to him. She acknowledges that whatever he is doing is wrong but she says that she would "pay him back" for raising her even if that means giving up her life...there is only so much i can do...have tried to encourage her to take a stand like you have mentioned above but she isn't ready to go against her brother at all..I just hope she doesn't end up with a terrible person..

Ho, ho. ho, wait now... If she owes him her life back, why did he give it to her in the first place? How is this, he did his basic duty by his respected parents in their memory, and instead of dharm, it is a business deal? 'I save your life, you do what I tell you later,' like that? How old was the girl when this business deal was struck? Where is the contract? How old must you be to become party to such a transaction? And how far does this go? If she thinks that she owes him her life because he saved her life, and then he says, 'That's alright, I don't need your whole life after all... just give me your hand, or your nose, and go out and beg for me ...after all, I saved you from the street. You owe me at least that much!' Is your friend settled enough in her mind to realise these absurdities, these perversities? Your would-be brother-in-law cannot appeal to any reasonable custom, nor any wholesome interpretation of any Scripture to justify the seizure of another person to dispose of her like chattel. He is also usurping those people who truly were God's means of bringing her forth in this life. Does he really think that his parents no longer exist and he no longer owes them respect? Is respect only owed by this girl to him, because he took over and paid the bills for ten year? ...Forgive this intrusive criticism. This is where I must stop to tame my tongue.

its alright..because i tried to reason with her using the exact same arguments but she is just not ready to listen...she admits its wrong but is adamant that it must be done...I used the same words "is it a business deal"..or "what exactly is the "price" that he has put on to your life"...but its sad..she doesn't listen.. Her, and her brother's stand defy every logic and don;t stand a chance in any argument, and that is why he has conveniently declared that he does not want to even talk about it...he is twisted, perverted and sick..the saddest part is that she is supporting him :-|

Pray for the uplifting of their souls. There is more there than you've been told. Let the Lord guide you to your life partner. Persist in this and I think you could perish for want of clean air. Shaant.

Touching stories. Truly..! I hope the best for everyone. I've been meaning to get back to this post to clearify my views. Please don't misunderstand me as pro-arranged marriages. Not at all. What you all speak of, is once again, not the tradition I speak of. What you speak of is injustice. I firmly believe arranged marriages to be a choice. Therefore, I do not make comment on if one choses arranged marriages or not. What you speak of is being forced into arranged marriages which I percieve is injustice. Please-as I've claimed once before- do not refer to arranged marriages as gangrapes. Blame not the tradition but what people have manipulated it to become. As for common interests- I thought about what you said Mr. Fettslaab and it indeed seems purely logical. Yet, I came to the point: what about traditional viewpoints one is provided with as growing up in respect to environment, culture etc? Indeed one can claim they are subject to change, but then there is no such thing as "family values." For then everything is subject to change. This is the point of divergence- one can continue with this thought process and go on to claim "Therefore, truth does not exist. Therefore, it just doesn't matter." Or one can view this as misleading and think about what makes someone different. As my biological senses/learning tell me, it is mainly environment (genes play 1% of a role). And one's environment influences basic viewpoints that are always subject to change but do not do so. Parents, an enormous factor of environment, teach cultural viewpoints therefore influencing a mentality that does not revert thinking but expands. This is change, expansion of one's views. This disregards abnormal circumstances/cases. Now, if one looks at India- there is a lot of diversity. Inside cultural circles is religious circles and even more circles. All circles converge into what people call "classes." Each class has different mentality, that can change to expand but not revert altogether. Therefore, as the belief goes, people with the same mentality can get along better for fundamentals remain the same. One's clothing habits, eating habits, etc. can easily change to accomodate a life partners' but there has to be some sort of accomodation involved. That is what I meant about how it makes sense that one would want to marry in the same class. I disregard "class" however, for i do not believe in that. But I do believe in sharing the same mentality found in close cultural groups. Now if you really dig deep, mentality stems from cultural groups to a certain extent, so it indirectly leads back to "class" but if one finds someone outside of cultural commonality, with the essentially same mentality then there is no problem in marriages. Yes! No problem in marrying someone as long as one is happy and compatible (obviously one won't marry someone who they cannot get along with unless by force). But if one does, there will always be some sort of compromise regardless of how easily and happily the compromise is taken. Therefore, the belief of successful marriage through same cultural aspects is substantiated to a logical, psychological and biological extent. Om Shanti!

(Meh, my keyboard is not working- please excuse my typos)

first of too bad for Monis i feel for u bro fo real i mean to luv nd den lose to tradition. man that reminds me of this song "Monche y Alexandria - Que Tontos" its about two lovers who r seperated for n e reason (its up to u as the listenr to determine y) nd who r now with other people but yet they still dream nd long for each other very sad. im not indian or desi so yall prolly thru my views out the window or ignore me out the conversation but here it goes. see wen u say arranged marriage i think of the traditional to indain customs, marriage. like dowry from the girls parents to marry her off to a family which they see as profitable to whomever (prolly the family) but the couple is chosen by the elders not by the couple themselves (as in the partner is chosen for the girl she has no say n who her partner FOR LIFE will b, im surprised fettslaab didnt mention this before). the marriage priyams speaks of is the wonderful power of freedom to chose who u live nd die with (God bless the USA). those are two different marriage arrangements. but tradition is tradition. im with fettslaab, how could he save her nd ask for her life n return, wers the love? ill save u as my property to marry off for gain? wow. tragic, her own brother. like fettslaab im with calln his bluff. if he truely luvs her as a sister theres no way he could shun her for following her heart but den again u do live n india wer there is no family values without cultural traditions as priyam puts it (i get it since the whole of india/ur family follows these customs it would b going against them correct me of im wrong) other wise ur known as a besheram, rite? practically same story, my girl's parents had an rishta or marriage for her nd she didnt wanna go thru with it so she didnt. her dad started cryin "o im havin a heart attack" started tryin to guilt her nd tell her "take care of the family wen im gone" since shes the oldest. now things r bak to normal everythings good shes working goin to school still stays with her parents still talks to them. as a man THE MAN it would b up to u/Moni to do sumtin figure sumtin out show her nd her bro u got wut it takes to b her man. best of luck bro. sorry if u cant understand most of wut i type, i dont have a british accent lol.

I'm sorry Dtown214. The religious freedom I get from America in arranged marriages? America did not influence my parent's decisions at all when raising me. I grew up in India in Delhi with my family and I knew what their views were from the start. Even my parents did not believe in a dowry when they got married. Again, dowries were used for the bride to settle down, not as a bribe for taking their daughter as it is exaggerated in TV Dramas in some cases. Also, the idea of 'besharam'. My parents never applied that to me for they trust the values they raised me with. They give me what you call a "freedom" that many girls in India are given. I think it depends family to family and religious roles. I know for sure that in Hinduism we are given all liberties and freedoms that I personally experience wherever I am in the world. I Fail to understand how America factors in to giving me liberties such as the right to non-arranged marriages? Through law terms? Because the law in India states the same. Does it give the liberty in the sense my parents' eyes just "popped open" to the world and realized their outlook on life was wrong so they gave me that libery? No- my parents were very much informed of the world in modern India. I Hope you realize the only difference in my upbringing was that later in life when I moved to America I was just at another location. My cultural values, traditions, etc. did not change and do not change according to geography. ANd my parents have never used 'besharam' on me before for I have done nothing aginst their wishes while at the same time following my wishes. I highly believe you are stuck with an image of India made by few peoples who the stereotype applies to. Everyone I know upholds this view, and by now, you may have guessed I'm not an ABCD and the families I interact with contain ABCD children along with Indians so I see this application accross the board. Reconsider your knowledge/approach.

sorry i didnt mean to apply that view to "the whole of India" i shouldve said most of india. but u cant deny that most girls n india, well rural india for the most part, dont get the same liberties that u do whether u live n the U.S. or not. i know u dont have to live n the U.S. for the basic "human" rights. nd das good that ur parents never refer to u as besharam u should b very proud of that im sure ur parents r proud of u too keep up the good work. nd no i dont have that stereotypical idea of india or i try not to at least but im not gon lie i do see alot of stereotypical indians around jus like im sure u see alot of stereotypical mexicans das how stereotypes get started (there has to b enuff people who follow thru with the stereotype rite?). ummm.... yea.... no disrespect. later.

No disrespect taken. I just don't see what you define as 'liberty' and basic human rights. India does not strip anyone of basic human rights or liberties, including rural india. I don't want to indirectly refer to anything so I'm just going to repeat that it depends family to family, mainly influenced by religious belief. The liberties to 'marriage', for example, may not apply to certain religions, but in Hinduism for sure, there is no restriction. And then you wonder whys some hindus, the majority, still chose arranged marriages. Because it is a choice. What you see as a denying of liberty is a choice for many. And arranged marriages doesnt mean against the bride's choice- the only reason a bride would pick is because she trusts that her parents would chose someone who is ABLE to support her family financially in the future- and her parents select many people and she gets to chose between that. It's sort of like dating. As for the rural part, I know for a fact the same rules apply. Girl like boy. Boy asks girl's hand in marriage. Girl accepts. And unfortunately, stereotypes develop indeed due to a handful of people who represent the population but they do not account for time. The stereotype of indians not having certain liberties was applicable long ago when cetain measures were the correct approach of the time. They do not apply to the extent they did. And even in olden times, these 'liberties' were correct in the sense the environment required such aspects for safety purposes. Every country has its own approach and its own circumstances that the approach needs to be applied to. You simply cannot take what one views as American liberties and apply it to a differnt culture entirely. If it works for us, considering marriage problems to be much lower in INdia than america, then why can't it continue to work? That is to say, if liberties are not given, which infact they are. Peace.

ohh see das exactly the lil bit of info i was completely ignorant of. i didnt kno this was a mutual agreemant by the bride nd her parents i was told the parents pik for "status/caste". nd i didnt kno that ultimately the bride has the option to pik her groom. well it doesnt seem so n the original post doesnt it jus ask Monis or his ex. but den again im sure its like u said from family to family. as for measures being outdated, well they can b im not sayin n e thing is wrong wit yalls (southern accent lol, with a bit of latin accent lmao) if it works den it works i guess if u follow a custom after a couple generations it becomes tradition. wut can u do? but i think if a women is married to a woman beater/coward or a cheater den she should have the liberty/civil right to divorce him. is dat allowed n arranged marriages? nd monis hows it goin? wut ever happened?

oh nd stereotypes dont really bother me i cant fault or blame them for being themselves id rather get mad at those who do nd want them to conform. but i dont get mad at idiots so i jus joke wit... whomever is down to smile ; ]P

haha...ofcourse she can get a divorce, at least in hindusim. I can't speak for other religions, however. Peace mr. latino! I find it quite amusing that you are on this site, must be getting some real cultural exposure huh?

yea i was tryin to impress my girlfriend but i think its not gon work out now (: ((). but yea sum real exposure. Peace YMP

lol..all you ended up doing was getting long rants by me. Something to brag about for sure to your gf right?! If you really wanno impress her..go make her some jalebis...yummmm

ooo can u send recipe plz YMP

do u have a yahoo so we dont carry on the conversation on Monis's post i think its very disrespectful. mines is elsureste214@yahoo.com

....Yes. you are right. Very disrespectful but then again, I just don't want to start emailing people from online....sorries. Please understand!! I will post the recipe for you asap on my profile from now on. yes?

oh yea das coo i aint trippin i jus want to show my girl i learned sumtin bout her culture besides a couple words thanks.

at least u wanna marry anbother desi they should be proud of that!

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